The Grinding Shed: Stolen Honor - The Grinding Shed

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Stolen Honor

#46 User is offline   Princess Icon

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Posted 25 October 2004 - 09:24 PM

EvilPopTart, on Oct 25 2004, 10:04 PM, said:

Liberal media bias...HELLO!!!! FOX NEWS???!!!!??? CNN????

Both Republican strongholds, again COMMON knowledge.

NBC, ABC, CBS, Washington Post, The Times, The Waco Tribune-Herald, (*snickers*), The Sacramento Bee...

all liberal strongholds, COMMON knowledge.
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#47 User is offline   Princess Icon

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Posted 25 October 2004 - 09:26 PM

Mr_Fred_Smith, on Oct 25 2004, 10:09 PM, said:

I can't wait for Jane Fonda to run for President in 2008.

LOL Jane Fonda VS Hillary Clinton for the democratic ticket...
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#48 User is offline   Alexander Icon

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Posted 25 October 2004 - 10:00 PM

atman is right, I will grudgingly admit.
It's not the houses, it's the spaces between the houses.
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#49 User is offline   Jake Icon

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Posted 25 October 2004 - 10:01 PM

Princess, on Oct 25 2004, 01:56 PM, said:

Excellent point. I suppose that is for the individual to decide. How credible are these men? How many of them are there? What are their adgendas, or why are they comming forward now, after so long? Or have they always been there, just that now someone is actually listening?

Like atman said. These guys were POW's DURING the war. John Kerry fought DURING the war. I don't see how his actions directly affected them besides pissing them off and giving them a touch of the hemorrhoids for a day or two. The fact that they blame Kerry's POST-WAR actions for their problems in life doesn't hold much salt with me..or many others, so it would seem, therefore their credibility is as questionable as that of the director's...which is pretty fucking questionable.

Their agendas? Well, gee, let's see...it's an anti-Kerry documentary, so....WOW! They must be opposing the idea of having John Kerry as President! How intriguing!

They're coming forward now because they're opportunists. I'm sure that the check cut to them by the documentor as well as the many companies who support Bush because he allows them to have free reign in the business world had a little bit to do with it...

Of course they've always been there, otherwise they wouldn't be alive to give their skewed testimonial. Of course, the only people listening to them are those who are mostly voting for Bush/are undecided and will remain so, so I don't know how far that "now that someone is teh listenign it will be ok" line of logic will carry on.

Addendum: And, yeah, atman has a point with the slant bit.

This post has been edited by Jake: 25 October 2004 - 10:02 PM

"so long to you 'moderates', yeah, it's time for getting down/your peace and quiet is criminal/while there's injustice in your town" - Ted Leo and the Pharmacists
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#50 User is offline   Princess Icon

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Posted 25 October 2004 - 10:09 PM

atman, on Oct 25 2004, 10:06 PM, said:

so you want to bame john kerry's words for the POWs' treatment? i'm not following that line of logic, sorry.

you know, i understand, it's difficult when you're fighting a war to have people not supporting you, especially the people who once had your backs. but that doesn't mean that everyone should just toe the line and get behind the cause regardless.

john kerry did what he felt was right for his conscience and for the conscience of the country. how that's honorable or not honorable, well that's really a question of individual opinion. again, the only facts we are dealing with is that john kerry spoke out against the vietnam war, and these people were POWs.

John Kerry did what he felt was right, well, that's honorable. However, these POW's are accusing him if lieing.

According to this documentary, Kerry said that they commited serious war crimes, Kerry met with the families of these POW's and encouraged them to speak out against their loved ones who were fighting the war, Kerry took that to vietnam and fueled the fire of the enemy so that the torture that these POW's had to endure was likely much greater than what it would have been. The POW's were made to believe that they were left, abandoned by the government who sent them there. All to encourage false confessions.

The POW's in this video say that because of Kerry, Jane Fonda and the anti-war movement, the war was extended by about 2 years.

My opinion:
If you are American, there is nothing wrong with speaking out against your government and if you really believe that something sick and wrong is happening, it becomes duty.

It is, however, a whole different thing to speak out against the soldiers who are fighting the war that the government sent them to fight. To prolong their suffering, to bring false allegations against them so they might be tortured more intently.
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#51 User is offline   Jake Icon

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Posted 25 October 2004 - 10:24 PM

I still agree with Fred_Smith about how essentially useless this documentary seems to be. We all know there were atrocities committed in Vietnam, and chances are these guys did some of them. Most of the vets that I've talked to in the past admitted to doing some dumb stuff. One of them fell victim to Agent Orange and barely survived, only to come out crazier than a shithouse rat. They were all good guys who went to serve their country, as I'm sure John Kerry was when he went into the Army.

I refuse to believe that the discourse of the anti-war movement prolonged the war. The government extends campaigns based on progress, not based on what a gang of hippies at Kent State have on their signs that day. If they want to blame someone for prolonging their suffering, they can blame the administration. Hell, if they wanted to, they could blame their fellow soldiers for not finding the camp and busting them out. It makes about as much sense as blaming the extension of their torture on the anti-war movement.

This post has been edited by Jake: 25 October 2004 - 10:25 PM

"so long to you 'moderates', yeah, it's time for getting down/your peace and quiet is criminal/while there's injustice in your town" - Ted Leo and the Pharmacists
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Posted 25 October 2004 - 10:32 PM

Princess, on Oct 25 2004, 03:44 PM, said:

Kenneth W. Cordier-- who spent 6 years, 3 months and 1 day as a POW. His awards include: Two Silver Stars, Defense Superior Service Medal, Legion of Merit, Distinguished Flying Cross, Bronze Star, Purple Heart.

George E. "Bud" Day-- spent 5 years, 7 months, 13 days as a POW. His awards include: Medal of Honor, Air Force Cross, Distinguished Service Medal, Silver Star, Legion of Merit, Distinguished Flying Cross.

There were 15 more former POW's that spoke, just as decorated with Medals and Honors, and some spent years more as POW's.

I would say these gentlemen are impeccable sources.

And it means precisely dick about Kerry being or not being a "traitor". All it means is that got a shitty time in Veitnam, nothing else. Just because they were treated like shit doesn't make our people any better.
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#53 User is offline   jackwright Icon

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Posted 25 October 2004 - 10:48 PM

Princess said:

I am well aware of the Liberal Media Bias.


Umm...What liberal media would that be ?
"Imperous, choleric, irascible, extreme in everything, with a dissolute imagination the likes of which have never been seen, atheistic to the point of fanaticism, there you have me in a nutshell, and kill me again or take me as I am, for I will never change."
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#54 User is offline   Jake Icon

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Posted 25 October 2004 - 11:19 PM

Coincidentally, most of the anti-war movement during Vietnam was composed of ordinary GIs. Tons of deserters went to Western Europe, volunteers and draftees protested, even those who were injured in the line of duty came home to protest.

A young man named Ron Kovic, who enlisted in the Marines at 17 and had his spine shattered by shellfire at 19. He went into the veterans hospitals and noticed how brutally some wounded veterans were treated, how many empty promises that wounded soldiers were given, and ended up joining the Vietnam Veterans Against the War movement.

He demonstrated against the war, remembering how badly he and others were treated in the hospitals. He was arrested. An excerpt from his book Born on the Fourth of July shows his treatment at the hands of a police officer.

"What's your name?" the officer behind the desk says.
"Ron Kovic," I say. "Occupation, Vietnam veteran against the war."
"What?" he says sarcastically, looking down at me.
"I'm a Vietnam veteran against the war," I almost shout back.
"You should have died over there," he says. He turns to his assistant. "I'd like to take this guy and throw him off the roof."


After witnessing all the brutality that Vietnam had to offer, he had to come home and deal with this sort of treatment. As did most of our troops. It didn't matter whether you were for the war or against the war, you faced the hatred and disgust of your peers.

A majority of the American troops were withdrawn from the area in 1973. Congress followed the withdrawal with the passage of a bill that limited the power of the President to make war without congressional agreement. However, the anti-war movement began way back in 1964 with the "We Won't Go" slogan and the burning of draft cards. Protest came to its pinnacle in 1970 with the Kent State incident when Nixon issued orders to invade Cambodia.

Later on that year, several dozen commissioned officers of the military formed the Concerned Officers movement against the war. When Hanoi was being bombed in 1972, a year before the withdrawal of troops, there were B-52 pilots who refused to fly the mission. There was a reported number of 89,000 deserters in 1971.

Tricky Dick Nixon started withdrawing troops in 1968. Less than 150,000 were reported to be in action in February 1972, but the bombing still went on. Nixon wanted to use the Saigon government and Vietnamese troops to continue the war using American funding and airpower. After the failed invasion of Cambodia, Congress resolved that Dick couldn't use American troops in extending the war without approval from Congress.

Looks like Kerry wasn't the only one. Likewise, he shouldn't be blamed for the massive outcry against the Vietnam war when there were tons of military officials, troops, citizens, hell, even Congress was against it. If you're going to listen to someone tell you that Kerry was singlehandedly responsible for all of these people's actions, that's your problem. Singling out he and Jane Fonda and making them the scapegoats for the entire anti-war movement is nothing short of asinine.

Additionally, the only people that it seems like they can honestly blame for extending the war would be Richard Nixon and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger with their orders to invade Cambodia in 1970. Pointing fingers at the anti-war movement doesn't seem to be a sensible resolution to such a situation, now does it?
"so long to you 'moderates', yeah, it's time for getting down/your peace and quiet is criminal/while there's injustice in your town" - Ted Leo and the Pharmacists
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#55 User is offline   cris Icon

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Posted 25 October 2004 - 11:32 PM

Damn, now I don't know who I want to run for 08' ... Jake, Evilpoptart or Atman.
You guys blow my mind. Touche!!!!
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#56 User is offline   jackwright Icon

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Posted 25 October 2004 - 11:40 PM

Let's see here, can we say, "political agendas", or might that represent a conflict of intrest?

This post has been edited by jackwright: 25 October 2004 - 11:41 PM

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#57 User is offline   EvilPopTart Icon

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 12:37 AM

Look, I have had some time to calm down and think about this, and yet, I really can't understand how you can even draw breathe with such a lack of common sense and everyday perception of whats really going on, that most people with IQ's high enough to tie their shoes have

Its kinda of ironic you complain about a bias in the media, yet...still remain loyal to a poorly produced FAKEumentry that is clearly slanted

And again it shocks me to no end, that you and these POW's can even begin to blame an ANTI war movement for making said war longer?

Its just doesn't add up

I've also noticed that you refrain from countering my point of Mr Sherwood being a proven liar.

So if you agree, or accept that fact, how can you accept this movie as genuine? And again, I call it a movie since its obviously fiction.

What I really been wondering is, since when did Liberal become such a bad word? Its like your cursing when your saying it. Oh wait, I know why...right wing propaganda like princess loves to spout here....

You have the standard Republican blinders on princess, its obvious to all of us. Its upto you to take em off, or live like a mushroom your entire life. AKA Live in the dark, and be fed shit.

This post has been edited by EvilPopTart: 26 October 2004 - 12:41 AM

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#58 User is offline   Mr_Fred_Smith Icon

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Posted 26 October 2004 - 08:48 AM

EvilPopTart, on Oct 26 2004, 01:23 AM, said:

What I really been wondering is, since when did Liberal become such a bad word? Its like your cursing when your saying it.

I was quite interested in the New Statesman article on this last week, which quoted an unnamed poll in which the claim was adduced that

Quote

[...]about the same portion of Americans describe themselves as being liberal (19%) as believe that the world will come to an end in their lifetimes (17%). Right-wingers have so effectively besmirched the term ("wishy-washy liberals", "tax-and-spend liberals", "limousine liberals") that only a few political martyrs and masochists publicly proclaim their allegiance to the cause once championed by Franklin D Roosevelt. The word preferred by left-of-centre types in the US is [the meaningless] "progressive", which hearkens back to the earlier Roosevelt.


NS

I still wonder about the source for this, but it never fails to puzzle me when I hear the way ordinary Americans often use the term in the mainstream media - not entirely, because there's a note of contempt at the word "liberal" here, too, albeit one that out-and-out socialists tend to use for someone who is essentially an effete, lukewarm reformer that happens to be afraid of using state power to eliminate moral bads - it just shows how effective Barry Goldwater's backlash campaign was back in the 60s, and it also demonstrates pretty clearly the continued historical weakness of the American working-class.

This post has been edited by Mr_Fred_Smith: 26 October 2004 - 08:52 AM

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