The Grinding Shed: A Morbid Thought - The Grinding Shed

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A Morbid Thought

#1 User is offline   HockeyGod Icon

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 07:57 PM

Here's a very morbid thought...

what effect did the holocaust have on the population of Europe?

I estimate that if the holocaust had not happened, there'd be between 50-70 million more people in Europe (as some estimate that 26 million were killed, and their kids kids would be having kids now).

You'd need another England to fit them all, as England only has 60k people.

Do you think Europe could handle 50-70 million more people without any lifestyle changes or consequences?

I'm not saying that any good could have ever come out of the holocaust.. it's a terrible thing. I don't support it.... but I'm just curious as to what would have happened to Europe had it not occured.

Thoughts?
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#2 User is offline   Mr_Fred_Smith Icon

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 09:57 PM

It's an interesting thought, but even foxes control their own population when their numbers increase or decrease drastically. The best way to control population is to plan and manage a predictable and shallow curve, not a sharply decreasing or increasing one. I'm curious what the effect of the Holocaust was on Jewish births after the war - I wouldn't be surprised to see a marked percentile increase as reeling families tried to recoup their numbers after the horror.
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#3 User is offline   Duncan-O Icon

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 07:28 PM

A lot of people (especially in the US around immigration debates) have a sort of misguided notion that every new person represents a massive liability to everyone else's lifestyles--as if we were currently engaged in a life-or-death struggle to claw the last remaining resources out of the earth.

As long as worker productivity is high, each new person represents a net gain for society in general. This is especially true in the US: currently, about 18% of our population is on Social Security or some other pension. By 2050, this number will almost double to 33%--fully one out of every three people will be sponging off of those still working.

Personally, I wouldn't mind having a couple hundred million more able-bodied Mexicans around to help shoulder the burden.
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#4 User is offline   Aqua Icon

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 08:02 PM

Another reason illegal immigrants aren't all that bad. You can never find *that* many white guys to do yard work and construction, terrible as that may sound.
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#5 User is offline   Duncan-O Icon

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 09:32 PM

It's just that I sunburn so easily...
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#6 User is offline   shaggy Icon

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 03:45 PM

Personally, I am a firm believer in overpopulation-as-screwing-us-in-the-long-run. That's just my beliefs. Not that I condone any active genocide to attempt to control said population. And I do think it is not as straightforward as "so many people will eat up all the earth's resources" inasmuch as just sheer logistics... each person is responsible for x amount of waste, x amount of consumption, etc. Currently, our economic model is based on mass production, which means we actually encourage x amount more waste per x amount of economic growth. I think that model, not necessarily tomorrow but eventually, will butt rape us in the future when we actively encourage exponential growth until the world literally cannot hold us.

There is a lot of favor for economic development that is not linked to waste. It just makes sense for our economic philosophies to grow as we as a society grow. What worked for us when we were four years old does not work for us now, and I see society as about 8 years old if we run with that analogy. Not that I think we do not have things to be proud of... just we have a lot of growth yet before we can really be said to be mature.

That said, any economic development that focuses on as little waste as possible, and as much gain per product rather than PER MILLIONTH PRODUCT would be very helpful. If we look back to older times, this model was a little easier to attain because there was little MILLIONTH PRODUCT competition. You had one to two dressmakers in the town, and whatever else have you, and so it was easier for handmade products to compete with other handmade products. With the rise of the industrial mills however... lots of good things, not as much negative as some people think, but a lowered emphasis on per product economy, and the birth of the "if you do not have a million sales, you can't put food on the table" model. Which is why a lot of artists have a tough time finding their way. Tough, not impossible... they have to reach larger and larger audiences, which in turn can be seen as somewhat good... 'art' as it stands today cannot survive UNLESS it has mass market appeal, which in turn means that successful artists almost have to ensure their longevity before they can even call themselves successful. Gone are the Homer's and Socrates' of the world, who could roughly get by with a local audience. Homer would have to sell a million units by himself to even get an agent's attention to have easier access to publish another work... Socrates... well, I'm sure good ol' so-crates would have found a way to be stubborn and anti-institution even in today's hyper-institutionalization. Dang, that man was a stubborn ol' genius :P

At any rate, my main point is that I think we have a lot of room to grow... but not necessarily in population. We have a lot of ways to grow in terms of philosophy and society. I am not sure if a Eutopia is ever truly attainable, but that does not make it a dream worth casting away either. I think it is possible to minimize warfare if we heighten philosophy. As the saying goes, "wise men wonder while strong men die..." so if we can just get EVERYONE to wonder...

I know, pipe-dream, but I am that sappy call-me-what-you-will that truly wants as much peace in the world as possible. Not that I am stupid enough to ever think that violence is not necessary in some cases... and I think it would be a strange society (one of peace) if we ever got it... we'd probably have to adjust and would probably end up fighting just out of boredom... which is probably why the cycle never really ceases.. but alas... one could hope.

In terms of the genocide... as much as it pains anyone to admit this, good things can come out of extremely dark times. Our understanding of the breaking point of physical tolerance, for instance, was advanced to a great deal by Nazi experimentation. Which, while morbid, can be of some use to doctors to understand when a patient is close to death. I heard somewhere that there were nazi reports that are still being censored to this day, which is actually a great crime to the dead... if someone I knew died while being experimented on, I'd at least hope that the experiment results could be used to some help to further generations... not that I do not understand why anyone would be extremely hurt by the concept of their loved ones being guinea pigs. But still.. to die an unjust death, but to know that something, ANYTHING can be taken out of that and used for good... that I think is the only thing that could reconcile the living to the unjust deaths.

As they say, it is one thing to kill an animal for food, it is another to waste their meat for the kill.

I think that if you look at many examples, dark times can give somewhat positive after-effects. Sometimes the best way to see light is when it is surrounded by darkness. I am an advocate for the light... not a hippy, because I think they got a lot of the main philosophies horribly misinterpreted... but an advocate for peace and happiness, something I think should be everyone's right unless they choose to waive it for themselves. And with any decrease of population, there is an increase in opportunity for the survivors. Humanity itself walks on the backs of the dead... they lift us up, and show us the way. This is why my more spiritual side always reveres and respects the dead... even if you do not see this spiritually, you can see it literally. We build anything with the knowledge that came before us... we ARE the knowledge that came before us. It is ingrained in who we are. We are, for better or worse, riding on the backs of giants... giants that can sometimes be beautiful, wonderful beings... and sometimes can be horrible monsters. But we ride, nonetheless...

Sorry about the diatribe... just the issue is something I have thought a lot about.
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#7 User is offline   grapey Icon

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Posted 16 February 2007 - 12:50 AM

I don't quite understand what's so morbid about it.

I've often wondered what the world's population would be without all the natural disasters/wars and how much more over-populated we would be.
As much as I find the things that happen to kill off the large numbers like that sad and unfortunate, perhaps it's God's way of giving us some extra chances. *shrug*

Of course, if it happened to me or my family, I'll assume I'd feel quite differently about it.
At last....
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